Remember the Iraq Wikileaks whistle blower from the Army?

CptnShotgun wrote:

Space, NOW would have been the right time.

Haha! I was at school. :/

Damn, that's a lot of reading.

I like Ronin's way of thinking, but I know that given human nature this is a pipe dream. Fido's right bro, human's are just too greedy - take away greed & it's no longer a pipe dream. I agree that we could skip like a thousand years of all this pointless, seemingly unnecessary, growth of humanity simply by treating each other as equal, irrespective of any differences in race/religion/etc. Unfortunately, to do it you'd basically need to get all like minded individuals together & send all the selfish dumb arses to another planet & then nuke their spacecraft once it was a few thousand miles out of our atmosphere.

Reality is that in the world we live in, country's need secrets. While it's none of my business, I agree that your government should be more honest with such incidents, this would gain a lot more respect for what is quite probably the most hated nation on our planet. I agree that it should be the duty of every person to stand up for what is right, but I also agree that for treason (especially treason from within your own military) a government needs to make an example of any individual who commits it. A bit hypocritical, I know; but if people started thinking they could get away with shit like that, it would create a bigger problem. Did the dude do the right thing? - perhaps, I don't really know the full story, I doubt any of us do. Did he know that he was basically taking on the US military basically by himself? - he was pretty fudge' naive if he thought otherwise.

It's a shit sandwich & I'm glad I don't have to eat any of it, but he should've known better.

lady-garden wrote:

Unfortunately, to do it you'd basically need to get all like minded individuals together & send all the selfish dumb arses to another planet & then nuke their spacecraft once it was a few thousand miles out of our atmosphere.

That creates the problem that all the wonderful unselfish people are basically saying "It's our planet now, you selfish people can go to hell, so because we don't see eye to eye with you, we're gonna kill you all." Making them selfish and mass-murderers and so on. Unfortunately we have to put up with our ugly little world. Take comfort in knowing you'll get older than people did 200 years ago.

lady-garden wrote:

Damn, that's a lot of reading.

I like Ronin's way of thinking, but I know that given human nature this is a pipe dream. Fido's right bro, human's are just too greedy - take away greed & it's no longer a pipe dream. I agree that we could skip like a thousand years of all this pointless, seemingly unnecessary, growth of humanity simply by treating each other as equal, irrespective of any differences in race/religion/etc.

1st, thx 2nd.... a bit of a pipe dream I guess.... I don't really expect to see it in my lifetime really, BUT I would like to see better progress made on that road.

lady-garden wrote:

I agree that it should be the duty of every person to stand up for what is right, but I also agree that for treason (especially treason from within your own military) a government needs to make an example of any individual who commits it. A bit hypocritical, I know; but if people started thinking they could get away with shit like that, it would create a bigger problem. Did the dude do the right thing? - perhaps, I don't really know the full story, I doubt any of us do. Did he know that he was basically taking on the US military basically by himself? - he was pretty fudge' naive if he thought otherwise.

It's a shit sandwich & I'm glad I don't have to eat any of it, but he should've known better.

He WAS an idiot... not for releasing the documents... no, that was heroes work... he was an Idiot cause he got caught.

I can agree to that.... the dumb f*ck confided in someone else online he thought he could trust, but who felt uncomfortable being an informed accomplice so went and told authorities.

Pure stupid stupid stupid. No matter how nervous that sh*t makes you, you keep that shit to yourself... only way to keep yourself safe.

Anyways..... you saw the photo of him on the last page... dude is already fudge up. His life is wrecked. His emotional state probably permanently destroyed.....

I think he's had enough already.

We aren't fecking savages ffs. He's not a murderer. He betrayed the military secrecy, and has payed for it with his mental health.

His life is wrecked because he wrecked it. Don't feel bad for criminals who do things intentionally. He is a murderer to some degree, by the way, because everyone knows releasing military secrets when there's wars on can cause death. Manslaughter if anything. Obviously they can't charge him with that but he knew what he was doing so obviously he didn't care.

I don't view him as a criminal though......

He did what he could to attempt to put a stop to inhumane treatment of Iraqis... which is every soldiers duty.

OFC they don't really WANT you to do that... they just say that to appease pacifists, and to help soldiers feel all honorable and shiz

Fido wrote:

His life is wrecked because he wrecked it. Don't feel bad for criminals who do things intentionally. He is a murderer to some degree, by the way, because everyone knows releasing military secrets when there's wars on can cause death. Manslaughter if anything. Obviously they can't charge him with that but he knew what he was doing so obviously he didn't care.

Interesting choice of words... I expect he did what he did because he did care, though obviuosly not in the same context as your statement.

@Ronin, you're welcome mate - it's a pretty marvelous pipe dream, one I've dreamt many times & will continue to.

I disagree with the do-gooder attitude that they've "paid for what they've done". You commit the crime, you do the time. If you can't handle the time, then you're a fool for being caught doing it.

This is a completely different argument, but IMHO, in 1st world countries sentences for crimes aren't harsh enough. Sentences should be harsh enough that they not only discourage the crime but the thought of being caught scares the crap out of all but complete nutters. Why do criminals have creature comforts in our prison systems? Surely they've waived any rights when they committed a serious crime. If you rape/murder somebody, you don't belong on this planet IMHO. If you're taking from somebody, then you're a greedy good for nothing P.O.S. & should be treated as such.

If you commit a grievous crime, then you obviously are not making any effort to fit in with the rest of your society. Over the years, we've imposed constraints upon ourselves in an attempt to prevent injustices & while I don't agree with all of these laws (minor things that don't directly affect others such as speed limits on open roads, or criminalisation of cannabis, etc), I would never intentionally do something to fleece or damage somebody else's possessions or bring harm to somebody either mentally or physically. I think people who do, should be dealt as harsh a penalty as possible.

I like the idea of a group of like-minded individuals starting a populace with their own laws & rules & that if somebody doesn't want to fit in with that, then they're not welcome. Good luck with that - another pipe dream, but at least in my dreams the world ticks over nicely & everybody's content with the way things are.

Yes, but the counter-arguement to that is, how are we any better than those we are punishing? I'm all for harsher punishments, but if we take it too far we are stopping to their level, and isn't that what separates us in the first place? The fact we know it's wrong?

That's why I don't believe in the death penalty, as Ghandi said: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

I think a little movie called Lock Up can teach us all a valuable lesson.

CptnShotgun wrote:

Yes, but the counter-arguement to that is, how are we any better than those we are punishing? I'm all for harsher punishments, but if we take it too far we are stopping to their level, and isn't that what separates us in the first place? The fact we know it's wrong?

That's why I don't believe in the death penalty, as Ghandi said: "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

I can't speak for your own system, but over here in NZ our prisons are like a 5-star hotel. However, I still feel that if my partner or child were violated or murdered, that the violator has no place sharing the air I breathe no matter how horrible our prison system is.

In my case, you're wrong about the difference. I'm a peaceful person & I honestly don't want to harm anybody - but if you harm me, you better know I'm coming for you. That isn't stooping to their level, that is turning around & saying, this shit ain't right & I'm not going to just stand there & take it with a smile on my dial while you to rape/murder/harm me or my family & then move on to your next victim.

To top off the argument, the number of repeat offenders is ridiculous. We allow people who behave in such a manner to leave our prison system after a specified number of years (over here, I think you get out of our tax-payer's holiday camp system in 7 with good behavior, that's murder BTW), only for them to go & destroy others' lives & repeat the process - oh & we don't have consecutive sentencing here - murder one person, or murder & rape a whole village... you're going to get the same time either way.

How much better would the world be if these crimes weren't tolerated? If the sentence for committing a grievous crime was so harsh, that it put off most people from doing it? & what's wrong with taking the life (whether killing or incarcerating) of a person who's only going to continue to ruin the lives of others - the crim's don't stop to think of the lives of all those people they are affecting, did they?

European prisons mostly are hotels too, I've heard countless stories and it's considered an atrocity. The Belgian national sport appears to be escaping from prison.

I agree completely with everything, I think, in your last 2 posts Mad. There should be a big gap between lesser white collar crimes, more serious white collar crimes, and then violent crime. Any kind of unintentional or merely reckless violence like overblown self defense (someone punches you so you AK47 them) would throw the situation off though. It'd settle into the current system eventually.

American Prisons are NOT hotels...... I know more then a few blokes whove done hard time and they never want to go back.... my last neighbor I even heard talking about if they wanted to send him back he'd go crazy and make them kill him instead. (he was a real nutter... asshole too.)

Jail is a bit different, but Jail is for petty crimes. Homeless don't mind spending a few days in lockup at the county Jail because it isn't that harsh, and at least they get fed, and even if it's always cold in the jail (I know, I spent a few days myself in county) it's warmer then a night outside (if barely)

I used to be all for capital punishment.... and when there is NO question of guilt when it comes to the BIG crimes (Murder/Rape) I do think it is appropirate, however I think that for most crimes (destruction/theft of property, Assault that doesn't result in maiming/serious injury) I think that rehabilitation is the way to go.... which is the supposed idea behind our current system, it doesn't work for shiz.


The law system though is just totally FUBARed... for example, there is this guy who robbed a couple houses... empty houses mind you... and he is now spending the rest of his life behind bars.....

meanwhile I know of another fawker who has killed people (though apparently not caught) raped (was caught... and a minor at that), burned (property... houses, cars, etc), just about the worst mother effer you could imagine, and the bish walks free.... sure, he spent 10 yrs in the slammer and is on parole (which I think he is violating btw), but he spent less time then the robber dude....

Then we have our "White Collar" criminals who steal enormous amounts of money that dwarfs an entire penitentiaries combined take, and never even spend a day in lockup... or if they do, they go to some low security damn near vacation home.