Remember the Iraq Wikileaks whistle blower from the Army?

And here you are again calling for revolution. Because we're clearly living in equally abhorrent conditions as the people rebelling against their dictatorships and autocracies in the Middle East and Africa. Yeah, things are just so bad for us right now that the only way to make things better is for the minority to overthrow the system that works very well for the majority (HINT: This system is called democracy).

if you think our system is "working very well" ur delusional

Working better than the others...

Ours being the West's in general. Western Europe, the US, Canada, etc. All some form of elected government. All allow changes to the law if a majority wants it.

Very true... yes... the problem IMO is that the majority is placated

This is where exposing the truth comes into play...

Secret agencies and clandestine operations for covert control may have worked in the past... but FFS enough already..

We don't need that crap anymore... Transparency and honesty is the future

If it worked in the past, and has been proven to work (no nuclear wars, for example, and no superpower v superpower since WWII), why bin it now?

If anything I think we need clandestine operations far more than a strong military now because the main enemy to world peace right now is terrorist organizations and rogue states. Iran, North Korea, all the other semi-rogue states like Libya, Syria, etc, would be downed in a war in no time at all. The problem is the funding of terrorist cells like Al Qaeda and the (old, not current) PLO. You can't root those out with military force (see Afghanistan) and transparency. They require infiltration and programs to placate regional peoples who may otherwise fall in with "the enemy."

/facepalm


yes, you're absolutely right, we SHOULD have a major clandestine force twisting the world so we can reap the benefits from chaos no matter what the human cost.... who cares if we kill a few kids right? We need to make sure we keep in control of the region so that we can run proper price gouging at the pump

If honesty is the future, we're all gettin nuked.

Phhh, says the very people who are trying to maintain their tight reign....

I'd rather risk annihilation as a truly free man, then to submit to some Orwelian state authority who controls everything from the shadows.

Without life you cannot fight.

And we aren't in a 1984 society. I don't think you've ever even read that book. We're not even close to any of the big brother societies you're so scared of.

And Ronin, you don't appear to know a damn thing about oil prices.
Read this: http://useconomy.about.com/od/commoditiesmarketfaq/f/oil_prices.htm

For starters. And remember that as oil prices go up it also becomes more expensive for the oil companies to get it. For example, if this Libya stuff meant Saudi Arabia was raising the price of its oil (this is not what is happening, by the way, I'm just using this as an example of the supply-demand oil market), it would be more expensive for the companies to purchase it, and they'd raise prices to keep their profits in line. They don't want to raise prices for the hell of it, because that means people will buy less and their profits will fall.

By the way, the oil companies are the primary investors in that market, because they know in 50 years the oil markets will be unrecognizable and impossible to predict.

As a final mention, whatever conspiracies you got in your head involving the US and oil, I'd like to remind you that the US isn't part of OPEC. Prices are rising because people are no longer investing in oil. And why aren't they investing in oil anymore? Because of recent wars and the whole trouble in the middle east, it's becoming too risky. That's right - turmoil is bad for oil.

yah, I'm sure that's why when the war started and prices shot through the roof Oil Companies were reporting record profits....

and 50 years? haha I'd be surprised if it lasts 20 at our growing rate of consumption

and I know we aren't in 1984 smart @ss... I'm more just trying to make a point about how wrong all this secret BS really is.

Ronin, do you even know what the laws of supply and demand are? Honestly, all this economic stuff you seem to have trouble with is very, very simple to grasp, because anything involving price, supply, or demand, is based on one fundamental law of economics.

Supply greatly went down, meaning they had to tap into their reserves (which they bought cheaply, at something like 30-50 bucks per barrel when things were good) to meet demand. Since they're tapping into their reserves AND PRICES WERE $100+, they were earning a MASSIVE profit... because buying a 30 dollar barrel of oil and selling it for 100 is a good way to do profit. Problem is it's finite, which is another reason for them to raise the selling price.

They don't actually want wars. When their reserves run out, prices will go up even higher. They don't want to tap into those reserves. That's why they're pumping so much money into alternative energy research - but the problem is people don't see the benefit of that now, because right now all people see are the prices rising. When those reserves run out and they can no longer meet supply at all... that is when you'll see actual hell break loose on earth. They're aware of that. Hence their large investments in alternative energy.

If you are having issues with anything I'm saying, I can provide sources and stuff. I've been studying this whole Middle Eastern shitstorm and all its related topics since I was 13, so this is all off the top of my head at the moment, but I know the facts are out there on the internet as well.

As for the secrets... if there were no secrets there'd be no diplomacy between countries because everything revolves around secrets being kept. If we told the world right now that we have a secret plan to keep Iran in check if it decides to attack Israel via the Suez canal, the plan would be worthless because Iran would know about it and alter their planning (secretly!) to circumvent the safeties. If North Korea knew how serious or whimsical we were about keeping the peace there, and how likely we were to attack, they'd use that. If it turns out the US is incapable of really keeping peace around Korea AND the Middle East, and North Korea finds out about that, you're looking at a huge new installment of the Korean War and millions will die. You need to be able to bluff for successful diplomacy... and to bluff you need secrets.

Cake is better than pie.

SpaceFox wrote:

Cake is better than pie.

Too soon Space, too soon.

CptnShotgun wrote:

SpaceFox wrote:

Cake is better than pie.

Too soon Space, too soon.

Dang, thought I had it this time.

Fido wrote:

Er, they can be kept in check by the goddamn democratic system. Duh. Also there are plenty of judges with enough authority to demand insight and let's not forget the Freedom of Information act. And do you think this is the first time shady things have gone on during wartime? I think overall the US has cleaned up its act considerably since Vietnam.

Your example is random, doesn't make sense, doesn't apply.

You can make the FoIA obsolete by classifying the aformented materials, sealing it off for the next 30-40 years, most likely being pointless by then.

Quote :

Er, they can be kept in check by the goddamn democratic system.

*Snort,* excuse me for a second...





*ahem*

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LOLOLOLOLOL !!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAAAA

....

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHHA *cough* haha ... urp .... *hack hack* *cough* hurhur.... HAHHAHAHAHAHAHH

HAHAHAHHAAA

Yea, the democratic system worked real well when the majority of America wanted out of the Iran/Iraq war...and look! We're still at war over there. I also find that odd that people think shady things during wartime is 100% acceptable. No it isn't, it's never acceptable. As to the US cleaning up their act? Rofl.

My example is merely your logic put in an extreme situation

Quote :

I don't care if the secrets he released led to people finding out the US was committing genocide somewhere. Seriously, the type and amount of secrets he released has nothing to do with it: His actions violated several laws which makes him a criminal regardless of the moral reasons.

The Freedom of Information Act doesn't apply to items of National Defense, which these were. So them being classified meant they were serious business. You randoms (government-wise) can claim to know better than the people whose jobs all this classified secrets stuff is, but you really don't. You're not the be-all end-all in intelligence. The internet has made all these people who think they're geniuses because they can look stuff up on wikipedia when they have no common sense or ability to apply logic to scenarios.

When picking a viewpoint you're going to strongly defend, I suggest actually thinking it through instead of going with your gut feeling.

We also aren't at war with Iran, I don't know where you got that idea.

Lastly, shady things going on during wartime is practically what wartime is all about. It's killing people for political ideals. That's not a pretty thing. I would be a pacifist if I didn't think war was necessary in many cases. The people you elect make the decisions. Pick better people or back some new blood in the races and sponsor them via grass-roots movements that got Obama elected (Obama is not a wealthy guy, compared to the Republicans he was running against). Obama is the perfect example of an unexpected win through the choice of the majority. Through democratic elections (or I guess republican technically, the words are intertwined nowadays), Obama was given executive power. What he does with it is his choice... you guys elected him. Same would have happened with McCain.

Besides, when you're prez you learn shit about the goings-on of the world that not that many people do, and I'm sure those truths significantly alter whatever base beliefs you held about the world the moment you learn them, which to me explains away the stark contrast between promised and given by all presidents since the early 20th century.

I think you missed the point I made. Person reveals dirty secret. Criminals hiding dirty secret put up against the wall. World better place. I don't even know why you brought up the FoIA act in the first place. I also don't pretend to know better than the people keeping these secrets because that isn't what I do. Will I use moral, biblical authority to back up my thoughts on how secrets should be considered? Of course, I have the wording of an omnipotent, righteous God to use.

I didn't realize my error with Iran. With the sudden veer from Al Qaeda to Iraq after 9/11, then all the U.S. military troops occupying every nation surrounding Iran, kinda hard to differentiate what truce we have and don't have in the Middle East.

And I shall laugh again, the democratic system is a joke. Anti-abortionists vote for Georgie who funds abortionist programs anyways. Obama's campaign was to take troops back from the middle east, but does a 180 and sends more to afghanistan and sets up the eventual war against Iran for w/e reason, most likely so Israel and the Muslim war destroy each other so we can reap the carnage. I don't even think the people being elected serve their respectful parties or country.

I also know that becoming president will seriously change your outlook on the world. JFK said their was a monolithic conspiracy and that the president's seat has been nothing more than a front to destroy America's freedom. Three years before that, JFK signed Executive Order No. 11110 which would render the Federal Reserve Act worthless and circulate new currency into our system after 50 long years.

I brought up the Freedom of Info Act because that's what it is, it gives people the right to ask what the government is doing, EXCEPT on matters of National Defense, which all of these leaks were about. There are checklists and protocols to keep the right things classified.

Moral and biblical authority doesn't exist in reality, by the way. You can have thoughts as long as you consider the possibility they may seem stupid to anyone with a brain.

I hope you're joking here, you can't honestly tell me you thought we were at war with Iran. Not even gonna add anything because I feel you might be trolling me.

Same with your comments on Israel and the "Muslim war" and the war against Iran. Again... not sure if you're being serious or if you're really that uninformed. I can understand if people who haven't researched it don't understand OPEC and the oil system in the world but the basic problems in the Middle East and who sides with who is pretty fucking easy to grasp.

As for the Kennedy speech, props for bringing that up. His conspiracy was actually exactly the Orwellian world you guys are describing, he feared that. So do I. Censorship is actually down from the levels it was in the 60s when he was president. Thanks primarily to the internet. And by the way, Kennedy's primary concerns were those related to the Cold War so you can bet there were more secrets under his rule than under any since 1992. In that same speech he basically rags on Communism and protects Free Speech. Those remarks were a defense of freedom of the press when some Communist diplomat asked him to withdraw something an American newspaper wrote. His speech goes on to say, paraphrased, "Sorry, guys, I hate secrecy, it's bad and all, and I'm not asking you to censor anything... but lighten up a bit because we're close to war so please, work with the government, and even the rights of the 1st amendment must yield to the safety of the public. So pretend we're at war and shut your gobs." Vague paraphrase. I found the speech here: http://www.relfe.com/A06/JFK_conspiracy_illuminati%20speech.mp3

It's a good speech. Secrecy sucks but we need it to some degree, he says.

obviouslky ur just going to hide all your real dirty laundry under "National Defense" then


fecking BS... you can be righteous AND strong. Ppl can make up w/e excuses about war that they want.... but the ends do NOT justify the means.

Which still brings up the question, why bring up the FoIA when it's pointless in this topic?

If by "stupid with a brain" you mean sin-saturated and stiff-necked, then yea, I can agree with that.

Of course we're at war with Iran. You don't set up mobile troops in every country around another country just because you feel like wasting tax dollars.

Albert Pike knew exactly how the outcome of WWII would happen, so it's perfectly natural to believe that there will be a mutual destruction of the Israel world and Muslim war after Iran is destroyed/captured as he predicted.

And I still find it unfortunate JFK thought national secrecy is needed, even to this day. I'm 100% positive that if every single secret kept in office, and all the other branches of the government were revealed, an insurrection and a revolution would break out, dwarfing the communist revolution against the Czars. Yet, people think it's acceptable to have people stay complacent and hide these things, which allows cancerous growths like the Federal Reserve, CIA drug war, 9/11, ect.

The FoIA is not pointless, people use it every day to get info about the government's workings. You can't not have secrets for national defense...

Sin-saturated? Oh God you really are one of those retards.

I'm done arguing with you now... Before this I thought you were at least somewhat human but you might just be the dumbest guy on this forum... or a troll. Either way worth ignoring.

How are secrets a required part of "Diplomacy" and foreign policy?

Of course you have troop movements classified, but that is TOTALLY different from what we're talking about here.


I bet people would be a LOT more accepting of us if we were actually honest instead of ALWAYS propping up puppet master oppressive governments all over the god damn world for fecking capitalistic interests.

You're brainwashed if you think we NEED secrecy... we NEED covert black ops.

I already explained why secrets are necessary for diplomacy.

If someone's completely honest and has no subterfuge going on, everyone else will just walk over them. You gotta have something hidden to bargain with, the ability to bluff is a must for all nations that want to be taken seriously. If the US was omnipotent with no competition in sight you might have an argument for a decrease in secrecy.

The leaks included those diplomatic cables which caused the US to have to run around and do damage control around the world. Among of course many other things, which do include troop movements, actually. The major news organizations of course chose not to publish them because they have the common sense to not try to get people killed. There was released a list of the most vulnerable facilities in the US, which included a nuclear reactor, a few dams, and some other key infrastructure that would cripple some sections of the US if attacked. The leaks put that information out there. It also exposes some minor strategy in Afghanistan that the enemy could easily use against us.

I too would love to see a completely see-through bureaucracy in the US, but this was all related to diplomacy and national defense. If the guy had said "oh hey, Welfare is failing and here is why" it would be different. But that information is already available to everyone and every branch of the government can basically be audited by any random civilian if they chose to.

SpaceFox wrote:

Cake is better than pie.

It's not.